Originally posted by ICA_Jude
Strongvis - seems you may have some consulting work in guaranteeing major portfolio-owners with 100% perfection. I bet you would land LOADS of business. I jest - I appreciate the input.

. . .
As an aside Strong - "my incompetence in this business" aside, you seem to care - a LOT. We have different knowledge sources and insights, but we're on the same team - and I do want to protect you, all of you, and promise, by no means, perfection.
Come on guys - I'm human, I'm trying, I could use your help. Sign up for the Newsletter and VOTE as to "ARE DOMAINS PROPERTY?" at the very least.

Yours in domains,
-Jude

I wasn't even talking about perfection here. This isn't about 100% guarantees. Any attorney will tell you, "you can be sued for anything by anyone". . . .in short nothing in life is guaranteed. Every legal tm claim can be interpreted. However, I wonder since you still seem to want to defend this issue in your prior posts. . .do you think there is a defense to the case which Verizon brought against ireit ? Is there any domain in the document they provided that can be interpreted as having a secondary meaning that I must have missed ? Was any domain used in that secondary way ? From what I can tell these would be simple fixes of blatant marks from MAJOR companies.

I'll take your challenge if you'd like. . .I won't guarantee 100% that there will never be a claim made against their names once I weeded it out, but I bet their track record would be pretty stellar compared to what they are facing now. I bet I could knock it down to 90% fewer c/d letters. Send me those lists.

Really if the ICA indeed wants to "cut the sh$t out", why doesn't the ICA assit its current members in this effort ? Maybe offer a service to root out the names or maybe vet the members beforehand. Maybe it's current members don't want this . . . maybe they don't have the same opinion. Maybe you guys would have less work to do defending bad practices if the problem was fixed in the first place. I reckon there's a million reasons why.

Lastly, Jude I wasn't questioning your competence. . . . I don't know you from Adam I was pointing out that a company in this business claiming this suit was the result of ignorance, scale, negligence, etc amounts to claiming incompetency. Most of these claims seemed to me be convenient truths.

Re: caring.
I'm not getting paid for my posting, so yes I care.

Originally posted by ILikeInfo
I'm sure we don't / can't know everything. My belief / assumptions:

1) Better tax treatment, as stated

2) Domain theft becomes illegal

3) Domains as property eliminates the ability of a registrar to "TOS" away responsibilites which the law says they must adhere to or that I have legal recourse to enforce independent of the TOS

4) As with registrars, contractual barriers by registries become more difficult and then registrants should be able to more easily force desired actions.

However I'm no lawyer, nor accountant. I just know that when I register a domain I have nothing, when I buy something in the store I have something and legal proof it's mine.

I also doubt that domains will ever be considered as property, even though I'd like them to be, they are leases. If I lease a store in a mall I now own it?

If they were property then our ownership would establish never ending dynasties which I think is bad ... But having legal rights to apply to theives and bad registrars (etc) would be a great thing given where we are at now.

I was just point out there's so many issues to this issue alone. I am pretty sure I have heard at least 1 top domain attorney say that this was a horrible idea.
Domains are unique beasts. If the US recognizes them as property what if you live in another country ? Do you now own "property" in a foreign domicile ? Can the property be taxed ? Who can tax the property? What about sales tax for domain purchases such as an aftermarket domain purchase? Can the UDRP still exist if a domain is now property ? I don't know the answers. Just devils advocating a bit.

Originally posted by strongvis
Maybe offer a service to root out the names

I think that's a great idea, was thinking about something like that myself (due to this thread) regardless who is doing it.

Originally posted by strongvis
I was just point out there's so many issues to this issue alone. I am pretty sure I have heard at least 1 top domain attorney say that this was a horrible idea.
Domains are unique beasts. If the US recognizes them as property what if you live in another country ? Do you now own "property" in a foreign domicile ? Can the property be taxed ? Who can tax the property? What about sales tax for domain purchases such as an aftermarket domain purchase? Can the UDRP still exist if a domain is now property ? I don't know the answers. Just devils advocating a bit.

I think it was a great question and worth discussion. Thanks for asking it.

Never realized the foreign tax issue. Of course if you have a 50 year old business in a country with no trademarks, someone with a trademark of your business name in the US could easily screw with you to try to nab your domains. So things are not fair now. Then what happens when someone steal your domain and launders it though a registrar in a foreign country?

ILIKEINFO - you may be no lawyer, nor accountant, but certainly know more about domains as a domain investor than they do. I'm happy you voted and that the votes are so far pleasing to your choice. As for their future, I have no reason to believe there is some impediment to domains not being treated like property - like other interests that are intangible (Intellectual Property, Trademarks, etc.) so don't be surprised.
I'd add that the way they are treated matters. For example - if you buy a business card scanner for $300 and it has a useful life of 3 years, you can depreciate it over three years and include it in Balance Sheets under "assets". If, however, you buy and sell them regularly -- even if sales slow down horribly, there is no depreciation and they are not "assets".
The point is that it is the same business card scanner, but your intent and actions varied. I see no reason why domains wouldn't be the same. You never have an exclusive title to a house either. If you don't pay your property tax, it goes away.
Finally - the way domains will be treated will be impacted by our membership, and the VOLUME of members so that when Vint Cerf asks: "How many people do you represent" we can impress. I'd therefore encourage you to join and we could talk about issues to put in front of Bob, Frank, Rick, Ron, Sedo, Oversee, etc.

Cheers,
-Jude

(p.s. include a hot domain you'd like to sell)

Strong - I question my competence every day! Anyway - RE: IREIT - I AM NOT THEIR ATTORNEY, DO NOT WORK AT IREIT, and AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH THEIR OPERATIONS OR THEIR SUIT AND HAVE NO INSIDE INSIGHT. All I was stating is that I know the filtering processes and consulting services of these giant portfolio owners (BuyDomains, etc.). So, IREIT will be fine, and maybe its an example for all of us that we need "Domain Liability Insurance" (go ahead and register that - consider it a freebie on the ICA). Also - IREIT is a DEEP POCKET COMPANY with funds to defend law suits and the like. The ICA is a Not for Profit organization that seeks to recruit lil $99 or $495 members like yourself (unless you're a corporation - in that case I apologize) and represent us to the media, DC, and the like. There's no printing press for revenues and we're not a law firm.
I can't engage in intense IREIT litigation conversations since (1) I WOULD BE SPEAKING FROM A POSITION OF IGNORANCE, and (2) I am NOT IREIT's representative.
Frankly - those guys are trying, its an embarrassment to them because they REALLY are trying and are white hat guys, then this sh&T happens and they throw their arms up and say: "GREAT!? What the hell!? This is EXACTLY the reason we're trying to get the industry away from and its right in our basement!"
The scary thing is, Atty. David Steel - the Darth Maul of Domains could easily suggest that a portfolio-owner with some "naughty" domains sell them to someone like you -- including such domains as "Zero.TV" and then cal Pirelli and "sell" them on a lawsuit for their "PZero" brand of tires. (a guy in Chelmsford, MA is being sued for that domain by an Italian tire co.).

Doh! That's Zero.us
And Strong - if you're serious about that type of consulting, I'm happy to speak on the phone and build a rapport/comfort level to refer you.

Cheers,
-Jude

You aren't familiar with their operations and have no inside insight, yet you keep making statements as if you do.

Statements like :
"those guys are trying, its an embarrassment to them because they REALLY are trying and are white hat guys, then this sh&T happens and they throw their arms up and say: "GREAT!? What the hell!? This is EXACTLY the reason we're trying to get the industry away from and its right in our basement!""

There's going to be "ambulance chasing" attorneys wherever there's money to be made. . . . It's inevitable that the sharks would come out when the chum of high liability portfolios and profits are waved in front of their noses. Can't blame 'em really when the prey is so easy. Sharks gotta eat too. So what's the solution to this problem ?

Lastly, for every zero.us there are 100 names registered today that are blatant violations.

I don't disagree there are bastards out their in the industry are causing problems for all of us strongvis (like the soul-less wretch that registered VATechMassacre.com).
As for IREIT - forgive me, but I don't know how to be more clear? I have never been to Houston. If you were in a corporation and people knew you, liked you, and spoke well of you, but were sued and advised by Counsel that you CANNOT talk about a suit - how would a colleague then KNOW ALL THE DETAILS? Well, I AM THAT COLLEAGUE.
The fact that IREIT has to keep their lips sealed when it feels there is explosive information they are holding back on that would better their stance, suggests something positive about them.
Now, are we to imagine that you are VERY familiar with the intimate business operations of every company you deal with? We're also to deduce that you don't simply lend trust to companies run by PEOPLE of integrity you have faith in. People can say what they want, but Bob Martin is one of the most distinguished and principled people I know. You can enjoy a chuckle at my expense, please, but I'm a better man for having met him. Is the company flawed: YES! However, unlike others who are only focusing on a stock event and exit strategy, Bob and IREIT thought it important to provide a fiat for future investors to at least have an attempt to pursue -- even while those domain investors here crucify IREIT.
Now, while you hem and haw, I'll let you reply with all of the support and charity you have provided the industry, other than burning up some nominal DomainState server costs

Well - at least you give a hoot!
-Jude

It's not specific to ireit - but they are a prominent member of the ICA and hence the publicity surrounding their holding of blatant tm domains reflects on the ICA and on the domain industry as a whole given the ICA is pitching itself as the voice of the domain industry.

If you really can't see that the whole reason the industry is facing all this backlash from the tm lobby is because of what strongvis put so well, namely: "the chum of high liability portfolios and profits are waved in front of their noses." then I don't believe the ICA will ever be effective because theres nothing in it for the trademark lobby to give a damn about domain holders "rights".

First you need to remove the legitimate reason for the complaint, then you can ask that the other side stop treating you as though you are guilty - because as an industry we are all deemed guilty by association as long as these mass scale blatant tm infringements and tasting/kiting take place.

The important question is "what is in it for me?" for the different levels eg normal domain holder, taster/kiter, trademark holder, government etc.

If nothing is being conceded to the other parties, then why would they want to give domain holders any consideration?

Originally posted by ICA_Jude
(p.s. include a hot domain you'd like to sell)

I'm not a seller of domains.

I am frequently a buyer of domains.

My position is one of wanting to ensure the playing field remains level (or as level as possible) between an individual and a say a large multinational. I want to insure that an individual has as much rights to registrering a domain name as anyone else, enjoys the same rights to registration as any oneelse, and actually has some protections against theft as well as the right to hold involved organizations liable when theft / hijacking / whatever occurs.

Given the profits made via PPC I believe most portfolio owners have actually gone in my direction of sale *NOT* being their primary motive. If a significant offer is made they sell, otherwise they continue to build portfolios as a way to continue to build revenue as well as the base liquid asset(s) the portfolio represents.

The biggest enimy we all face is the foundation of the "Net Neutrality" issue and how large companies are being allowed to procedurally, or though the legistlature, eliminate personal rights (also extended to competitors) on the internet. This is how companies are chossing to compete, by have those in control eliminate their competetion for them.

Originally posted by safesys
It's not specific to ireit - but they are a prominent member of the ICA and hence the publicity surrounding their holding of blatant tm domains reflects on the ICA and on the domain industry as a whole given the ICA is pitching itself as the voice of the domain industry.

If you really can't see that the whole reason the industry is facing all this backlash from the tm lobby is because of what strongvis put so well, namely: "the chum of high liability portfolios and profits are waved in front of their noses." then I don't believe the ICA will ever be effective because theres nothing in it for the trademark lobby to give a damn about domain holders "rights".

First you need to remove the legitimate reason for the complaint, then you can ask that the other side stop treating you as though you are guilty - because as an industry we are all deemed guilty by association as long as these mass scale blatant tm infringements and tasting/kiting take place.

The important question is "what is in it for me?" for the different levels eg normal domain holder, taster/kiter, trademark holder, government etc.

If nothing is being conceded to the other parties, then why would they want to give domain holders any consideration?

Agreed.

Again, there is an "us versus them" additude that keeps being expressed by the ICA while at the same time saying "we must come together".

We do need to come together.

The "together" *REQUIRES* the trademark community *AND* domainers. Of course that also means many proffiteers *OF* the "us versus them" environment will oppose such an idea / oppose actually solving any problems ..... It's just not in their interest, and I'm talking about *BOTH* sides of this equation.

Originally posted by ICA_Jude
Finally - the way domains will be treated will be impacted by our membership, and the VOLUME of members so that when Vint Cerf asks: "How many people do you represent" we can impress.

You don't need Vint to solve this problem.

In fact solve this problem and Vint becomes even more irrelavent .... And I bet he knows that ....

I bet he knows if you solve this problem you'd be proving ICANN is not doing it's job, that the ICA is doing ICANN's job for it.

safesys/ILikeinfo - I'm in step with both of you. Again - The ICA is NOT IREIT'S law firm. Tell you what - I'll find the number for their attorney and you can try to pry to get him to violate attorney/client privilege. Sound RIDICULOUS? Then stop asking me about the innards of their law suit. ALL I know is that they tried, there's a goof, all is confidential, end of Story.
Now go ahead and ask me another IREIT Question.

As for members, take a look at the site www.InternetCommerce.org. First and foremost, you get the gracious embrace and acceptance of the industry's biggest players. We've been taking issues of import from them - promoting and helping where a hand can be lent, etc. As for "Professional" Level and up - you get a code/document with discounts on a growing variety of items (Travel, business printing, rental cars, insurance -- my personal favorite is 80% off of VistaPrint - I love it).

Appreciate you looking safesys. Let me know if there's something I can do for you.
-Jude

Personally, I *DO NOT CARE* what iRets lawyer has to say. Marc worked *VERY HARD* to form my opinion of that organization long ago and I highly doubt my opinion will *EVER* change .....

Originally posted by ICA_Jude
safesys/ILikeinfo - I'm in step with both of you. Again - The ICA is NOT IREIT'S law firm. Tell you what - I'll find the number for their attorney and you can try to pry to get him to violate attorney/client privilege. Sound RIDICULOUS? Then stop asking me about the innards of their law suit. ALL I know is that they tried, there's a goof, all is confidential, end of Story.
Now go ahead and ask me another IREIT Question.

I see no stated plan or your site as to how you intend to solve all these problems.

Therefor you prevent us all from understanding how you will proceed *AND* you deny yourself from seeing your own members are in conflict with your [UN]stated solution.

State your plan on your site and one of 3 things will happen:

1) This argument will immediately end with iRet's membership being in clear conflcit with the goal/plan.

2) You'll convince us all not to take your organization seriously = ICA dead

3) We'll be "beating you up" to add more detail until option 1 or 2 results.

Either way I don't see much movment until a clear articulation exists and can be understood.