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  1. #16
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Midwest Usa
    Posts
    738
    hmmm. So lets say I buy a domain from a Netsol seller. I transfer it to another registrar, and 90 days out, I get an offer to sell that same domain for double my money. Question, can I sell it? If the answer is yes, and it transfers to a third registrar of the new owners choice, what the hell happens then? I admit, I didnt read any of the material. I dont know about any of you guys, but I have bought a stolen domain a few years back and it was pulled from my account a few weeks later and transferred back. It cost me a few hundred dollars but I didnt complain too much as it taught me a valuable lesson. But people buy and sell domains and dont necessarily keep them all for six months. Is there a new "you must remain the owner" or " the gaining registrar must retain" the said tranferred domain for a period of six months. Or to word it better, is a sale/subsequent registrar transfer prohibited for the follwing six months? I can just see somebody getting a six figure offer and the buyer saying not so fast. Maybe this is just a set up so ICANN can propose and sell domain name title insurance.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    3,032
    The ITRP just had a conference call, and I was basically ganged up on for pointing out all the flaws in the proposed ETRP (Expedited Transfer Reverse Policy).

    How's your business going to be affected when folks can simply undo a legitimate transfer "at will", without due process, within 6 months? How will an escrow work if the prior owner can simply claim "hijacking" and undo a transfer, when it's simply a case of seller's remorse?

    I'm totally appalled at how they want to create a huge loophole in policy, that will have collateral damage which is much bigger than the "problem" they're trying to solve.

    A transcript of what went down should be available later at:

    http://brussels38.icann.org/node/12502
    George Kirikos - (416) 588-0269
    I'm a domain buyer. Please use the contact form on my company website to submit lists of domain names. If a matter is urgent, please telephone me instead.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    3,032
    BTW, I came up with a possible solution, namely an "Irrevocable Transfer Procedure." That would give people a choice, see:

    http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-ir.../msg00334.html
    George Kirikos - (416) 588-0269
    I'm a domain buyer. Please use the contact form on my company website to submit lists of domain names. If a matter is urgent, please telephone me instead.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    3,032
    The comment period is now open:

    http://www.icann.org/en/announcement...05jul10-en.htm

    I'll likely have my comments in sometime next week.
    George Kirikos - (416) 588-0269
    I'm a domain buyer. Please use the contact form on my company website to submit lists of domain names. If a matter is urgent, please telephone me instead.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    3,032
    Hey folks,

    Now things are getting interesting. As you know, we're getting swamped with ICANN comment periods right now. But it appears that the members of the transfers workgroup are reconsidering extending the public comment period by two weeks! What a joke. One can see my response at:

    http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-ir.../msg00415.html

    and you can see related discussion at:

    http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-irtp-b-jun09/

    It's all too typical of ICANN politics....folks generally want more time, but on a specific issue when they feel that the public will oppose a given issue, they won't extend deadlines at all, in order to get the fewest possible comments.

    The public comment period is currently set to end on July 25, and there are many other comment periods that need to be dealt with. All the documents are at:

    http://www.icann.org/en/public-comme...initial-report

    (and as I've previously discussed, the proposed ETRP would have a huge impact on the secondary market if sellers were able to simply undo a transfer at will anytime within 6 months; it would cause havoc due to "seller's remorse", affect escrows, and affect overall domain name valuations by creating uncertainty over true "title" over domains; the current proposal lacks any due process whatsoever to prevent "gaming" and "abuse" of this clawback procedure)

    Anyhow, if you feel as I do that there should be more time, you might want to let them know. One can send a comment to the public comment site at:

    irtp-b-initial-report@icann.org

    Or contact members of the workgroup, listed at the bottom of:

    http://st.icann.org/irtp-partb

    You can see from the results of the Doodle Poll so far, that they're currently voting NOT to extend the comment period! Ridiculous!
    George Kirikos - (416) 588-0269
    I'm a domain buyer. Please use the contact form on my company website to submit lists of domain names. If a matter is urgent, please telephone me instead.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    3,032
    (from a post I just made on another forum, as a primer to those who've not followed the issue in depth)

    Let me explain why the ETRP affects everyone in the domain industry, in a nutshell. It would allow for "seller's remorse" because domain transfers could be undone anytime within 6 months without any due process, and with no built-in dispute mechanism at present (unlike the TDRP). It is supposed to be limited to domain hijackings, but there aren't any "qualifiers" to it. This despite the issues report saying any emergency procedure needed to be "qualified" to situations where the magnitude of the harm was great, and tested to ensure that there was no opportunity for "gaming", i.e. to allow an attacker to misuse the procedure to reverse hijack a name.

    So, suppose you are buying a domain name. You have to factor in as a buyer that the domain name could be clawed back (causing you legal fees, etc.). That lowers the value of the domain name, as it's coming with a built-in risk, a built-in liability. So, instead of paying $10K for a domain name, you might pay $8K. Or, you might not even do the deal at all. You might say "oh, that doesn't affect me, we only sell domains. A-ha, but when the buyer is buying from you, you can jump and down all day long saying you'll never use the ETRP against them.....but it's still a risk for the buyer. So, the price you get for a domain name will always be lower to a rational buyer. So, uniformly it lowers ALL domain name values.

    If transfers are currently "irrevocable", but suddenly become undoable, it's kind of like what would happen to "money", if everyone suddenly was forced to stop using wire transfers (i.e. which are essentially irrevocable), and *had* to use credit cards for ALL transactions. Markets would be in chaos, because there'd be a big risk to deal with in ALL payments (i.e. chargebacks, credit risk, counterparty risk).

    So, it's just not "sophisticated buyers" or "domainers" who need the irrevocability to exist....it's everyone, sellers, holders, developers, etc. lest all domain names become devalued and tainted.

    Just imagine if the same "undo" rules were in effect in the housing market....everyone in the housing market from broker to buyer to seller to builder would be affected by the uncertainty. The same would happen to domains, due to uncertainty over true title.

    Then there's the side-issue of the 60-day lock on registrant change (i.e. the "GoDaddy so-called "opt-in") which the report commends as a best-practice! (helps that the working group had 2 GoDaddy employees on it, ) I'm still trying to get that killed via:

    http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-ir.../msg00387.html

    but so far, silence from ICANN.

    In the "worst-case" scenario, your transactions (if done through an escrow firm) would need to have up to a 6-month closing period. Can you live with that??!!??
    George Kirikos - (416) 588-0269
    I'm a domain buyer. Please use the contact form on my company website to submit lists of domain names. If a matter is urgent, please telephone me instead.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    3,032
    Only takes a moment to ask for more time for comments, folks, and would be greatly appreciated.

    Click "Add a Comment" http://is.gd/dulfQ or email irtp-b-initial-report@icann.org

    Or if you're ready to submit a comment, do so before the current deadline (July 25 is rapidly approaching, if you've not started the research yet).

    (I've archived the current discussions from this board and sent them in as comments, so at least they'll be on the record, although more detailed ones would probably help)
    George Kirikos - (416) 588-0269
    I'm a domain buyer. Please use the contact form on my company website to submit lists of domain names. If a matter is urgent, please telephone me instead.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    3,032
    I decided I've had enough of those folks in that workgroup. Here's my parting email to them:

    I've come to realize my contributions and expertise aren't being respected in this workgroup. So, I'm leaving. Please remove me from the mailing list.

    The ones that think they've produced a "perfect" report will eventually have to deal with the fact that they've left in many loopholes that will be exploited by bad guys. I'm not going to bother pointing out all the gaps in the report, just to have my comments be ignored by folks who have been sloppy and don't want to admit it. It's better that you produce the bad policy, let the worst happen, and deal with those consequences, with your names on the report, not mine. I have the financial resources to route around your bad policies, unfortunately most people don't.

    So, farewell. It was a pleasure working with some of you.
    I'm not even going to bother commenting on their "work" anymore.....they can just go ahead and do whatever it is they're going to do.
    George Kirikos - (416) 588-0269
    I'm a domain buyer. Please use the contact form on my company website to submit lists of domain names. If a matter is urgent, please telephone me instead.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    3,032
    Here's the comment that Fabulous.com just posted regarding the ETRP, which succinctly identifies the loophole in the policy:

    http://forum.icann.org/lists/irtp-b-.../msg00007.html
    George Kirikos - (416) 588-0269
    I'm a domain buyer. Please use the contact form on my company website to submit lists of domain names. If a matter is urgent, please telephone me instead.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    3,032
    It appears we have victory on the ETRP. Two major proponents of it, NSI and GoDaddy, now seem to have abandoned their support for it:

    http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-ir.../msg00577.html
    http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-ir.../msg00578.html
    http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-ir.../msg00579.html

    So, it should be as good as dead now. That's a nice way to start 2011, with one less idiotic proposal to worry about.
    George Kirikos - (416) 588-0269
    I'm a domain buyer. Please use the contact form on my company website to submit lists of domain names. If a matter is urgent, please telephone me instead.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    2
    Instead, this proposed policy excuses the "weak" registrars, and punishes the strong registrars. It will actually incentivize registrars to lower security, instead of improving it, because "Hey, you can always challenge the outgoing transfer later." This perverts the incentives.

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