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  1. #46
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    I don't actually doubt that he has strong traffic on airlines.ws, I just don't accept that it is down the domain as the domain doesn't rank well for the keyword it exactly matches. imo the rank is due to the page content itself, which is textbook seo.
    When using google for counts - use double quotes for usage counts for multiword terms and set "match type" to "exact" for all search volume lookups. Click here for more info

  2. #47
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    Originally posted by bidawinner
    I dont know where you get your information but you need to find a new source.. CTR's of 20, 30, 40 and hiigher are standard amoung a lot of us.
    Is that all your getting?
    Your domains are never completely worthless. They can always be used as a bad example.

  3. #48
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    Last edited by generic; 10-26-2004 at 03:10 PM.

  4. #49
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    There are several interesting aspects of this thread. I found one aspect particularly intriguing: the highest and best use of a strong generic .com domain like men.com; the choices being discussed seem to primarily be

    1. revenue-maximized ppc
    2. minimal content + ppc
    3. substantial content + ppc
    4. ecommerce (direct conversion to $)

    It strikes me that even if the 1st option is currently the most profitable use of such a domain, it is self-defeating if a higher percentage of these domains are operated in this manner. If users learn than whenever they type a noun followed by .com into their browser, they will be taken to a page that offers no useful content, but will instead see a list of ppc ads, they will gradually be less and less inclined to follow that behavior. Why? because the "reward" for typing example.com into their browser isn't to be taken directly to a site about example, but to be taken to a list of sites bidding on the word example. Admittedly, this isn't a disastrous outcome for the user, but it certainly isn't fully beneficial or efficient from the user's perspective.

    If the user had instead typed the word example into a good search engine they would have received back a choice of a similar list of ppc ads plus a huge selection of unpaid listings related to example.

    If the search engine is a good one (and it's algorithms haven't been defeated by Spammers) the "free" listings will include many links to sites with better content than the sites provided in the ppc ads -- for instance, sites that focus on providing content about example, either as a core part of their purpose (e.g. forums, magazines, content sites supported by advertising), or as a side effect of their efforts to attain a high search ranking.

    If I am right in this reasoning, then there is a fundamental flaw in the pure revenue-maximizing ppc business model -- if enough domains are developed using this model, it will become self-defeating -- somewhat similar to the "tragedy of the commons" problem from the economics literature.

  5. #50
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    that's assuming that the visitors don't derrive benefit from being presented with a selection of entities that they can choose from to fulfil their purchase interest.
    When using google for counts - use double quotes for usage counts for multiword terms and set "match type" to "exact" for all search volume lookups. Click here for more info

  6. #51
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    Originally posted by Econman
    If users learn than whenever they type a noun followed by .com into their browser, they will be taken to a page that offers no useful content, but will instead see a list of ppc ads, they will gradually be less and less inclined to follow that behavior.
    I think you are very wrong.

    Go to WeddingReceptions.com.

    All you see is what your looking for if you are the person who typed that domain in. If people get used to typing in domains and seeing targeted sites like mine it will INCREASE type ins all across the board...With being able to type it in you can bypass going to a search engine.

    It is, in fact, a mini search engine targeted to EXACTLY what the visitor is looking for.

    So you call this "no useful content"?

    Originally posted by Econman
    If the search engine is a good one (and it's algorithms haven't been defeated by Spammers) the "free" listings will include many links to sites with better content than the sites provided in the ppc ads
    Yeah and what do you think those sites listed for free are trying to do? They are trying to make money....same thing the paid advertisers are doing...so whats the difference besides that they didnt have to pay for the click? Thats about all the difference.

    The advertisers on my site offer plenty of content...so by typing in my domain name the visitor is only one more click away from a content rich site...which would be the same as a finding a site in a search engine...

    Originally posted by Econman
    if enough domains are developed using this model, it will become self-defeating -- somewhat similar to the "tragedy of the commons" problem from the economics literature.
    Wrong again. It will benefit type in domains all across the board as I mention above.

    Usually people making these type of statements are people who do not have quality type in getting domains and get to see them in action.
    Last edited by Chad; 10-26-2004 at 07:18 PM.
    Your domains are never completely worthless. They can always be used as a bad example.

  7. #52
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    WeddingReceptions.com is a nice looking, well executed ppc site.

    But, I question whether a typical visitor would rather land on your site than on weddings.com.

    Weddings.com is arguably a better example of the type of high value generic .com domain being discussed here, like men.com; the debate is what is the highest and best use of such domains: The approach you are using -- a pure ppc business model, with no content except for paid listings, or a business model that provides users with additional non-ppc content. The latter approach is what the owners of weddings.com are doing with their site.

    Regardless of which use of the domain is most profitable for the owner in the short run (an interesting albeit complex question) there is also the issue of how values are affected by the actions of other domain owners. If every prominent generic .com were developed like weddingreceptions.com instead of being developed like hotels.com or weddings.com, would a tragedy of the commons occur, in which the value of such .com domains would spiral downward?

    If users find lots of useful information on a site like weddings.com, I would argue they are more likely to try typing in other generic names.

    Let's focus on the user's perspective for a moment. I can think of at least one benefit of going to a site like WeddingReceptions.com compared to typing Wedding Receptions into the Google box: the user avoids the effort of going to google. (This is one click saved, if they have google bookmarked in some manner, or it is 10 keystrokes, if they don't). Perhaps you can point out some others.

    In contrast, I can think of at least three benefits to the user from going to Google rather than typing their keywords into the browser bar:

    1. they avoid 4 keystrokes (.com)

    2. they have access to a much larger selection of listings to choose from (supposedly 265,000 though no one goes all the way to the bottom of such a list).

    3. the google listings are more diverse, including both ppc listings on the right side of the screen, and unpaid listings on the left side.

    4. Many of the sites on the left side have achieved their visibility in the SERPs because of the quality and quantity of their content, rather than their aggressiveness in bidding for traffic.
    Last edited by Econman; 10-26-2004 at 09:19 PM.

  8. #53
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    I also think you have to examine the owners operation as a whole and not just view a single domain because if that person had only one domain to generate their income then they have different motivations and resources to build the income from that single domain compared to someone with hundreds/thousands of domains, and their ability to increase their revenue by optimising how the ppc works across all the sites and/or by acquiring more names.

    its a cost benefit determination, that is underwritten by the fact that type in traffic is a base level and development can be done on top of that at any time whereas the reverse isn't true. Its always prudent to make hay while the sun shines - and the ever increasing cost to acquire inherent traffic shows this.

    being reliant on a third party (like google) for the visitors from which you generate the value introduces a layer of volatility that type in domains don't get (which is why type in traffic domains are generally paid at higher multiples than se traffic domains).
    When using google for counts - use double quotes for usage counts for multiword terms and set "match type" to "exact" for all search volume lookups. Click here for more info

  9. #54
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    Originally posted by safesys
    I don't actually doubt that he has strong traffic on airlines.ws, I just don't accept that it is down the domain as the domain doesn't rank well for the keyword it exactly matches. imo the rank is due to the page content itself, which is textbook seo.
    His ranking has to do with a number of factors, including page content, site structure, use of tags, sites linking to him and their importance/relavance, anchor link text and so on - the name on the left of the dot can help too indirectly because it will often be the keywork linked to (natural anchor link text power) and it will tend to have a heavy focus at least on the index page. Also, some say keyword urls give a slight boost - or at least did. But, no, the .ws doesnt really offer much natural benefit imo out of the box,though using an easy to remember keyword will I think help him in branding his site. If his seo was very strong, which I'm sure he is aiming for, he will be up there for airlines. It takes time. But that is the end goal. Its not easily done - and I will be returing to this point soon. There are only 10 spots on that first google page and millions are compteting for them for a good reason - massive high converting traffic.

    My point with the new sensible tlds (preferably with generic names) like info or biz, was that the make sense tld added a new dimension of added remeberability - so I would desire this over a relatively unknown and not really distiguishable extension like .tr, .og or whatever for use in the se's. You use it not so much to help your seo (though again, the keyword on left can help due anchor text linking and focus on site content), you use it so that it may help people remember your site after they have seen it in the search engine. It may also be easier to describe than a name with a bunch of hyphens offline.


    Now with this type of .com you have the ultimate expression of this. You have a strong generic name with the strongest most well known extension.

    Could you just maximize revenue with the .com ppc typein scenerio and then just take any old name and do seo on the side? Just as with the earlier example 5% of 1000 with ppc typein name and 1% of 1,000,000 with the seo anything name?

    No, you wouldn't do this especially if you are a man on the move, busy getting high traffic names - it would take too long - its difficult work. It would take a lot of work to achieve that with any old name/extension. But, with the .com generic name, which has the unique property of "inherent" typein traffic, a symptom of its reconizance, you could relatively easily turn it into a 100-300 page monster of itself. You would not be able to easily do this making a site with any old extension from scratch, putting it mildly. You are simply not gonna have the typein traffic with any old name to help fuel growth and give right away exposure to your content fueling more rank increasing links nor will you have the "gift" linking which can happen with generic names (just like typeins). Not to mention the generic.com name itself will be the easiest possible thing to remember - and for it to be further typeind in and linked to (especially with content as previously described).

    Blizzards of traffic coming in stomping on the links, buying things - sheer traffic volume, coming in from a hundred or more pages on different highly targetted keywords. These people are buying. And relatively easily acheieved because of the unique property of the generic .com - look at the links in marketleap on many undeveloped .coms - many have hundreds of links and they have never been developed. In fact, many people still ask if .com ranks better than other extensions in the se's because they seem to, even with no content (meaty text). The reason for this is unseen backward links.

    Why?

    It's the same story everywhere - it (.com) is recognized at all levels. In the search engines this recognance is expressed as links to a site. People will often link to the site, sometimes just because it is the name and .com comes at the end. A type of "link typein". Or they find the site through the typein and then link to it. (can you imagine the potential for this with content there? - and with getting 100's of times the visitors?) Content in this case being described as 300- 500 words of text (per page) that the se can use to properly index the page - "meat" - and content as in something useful and unique - encouraging as many people as possible to link to it because of the usefullness or uniqueness. With the links taking you closer and closer to that front page where the real traffic spawner awaits.

    The significance of this should not be underestimated. The se's use the amount of links (and quality of them) as a good part of their algo to determine rank - this is not a minor thing. A one page difference in rank can mean thousands of hits a day.

    Now can you imagine a site with an increasing general typeinnage (due to se exposure + whatever typeins its getting now), now having 100- 300 new potentially highranking entry points into it where people are prequalified coming in searching using all kinds of relevant keywords (with much traffic coming into the page/site using super niche related searches of the topic - with seriously high CTRs), with each page meeting the goal of that search?

    You will have many hundreds of thousands of people learning of the site who may never have typed it in (in browser) through the search engine - this will create much more sales - this will create even more "link typeins" and real content type linking - increasing rank, this will increase typeins as people simply easily remember where they got that content (for those who didnt bookmark)- finding it first in the se, and at the end of the day - its just a lot more money. It's a synergistic upward spiral imo.
    Last edited by generic; 10-26-2004 at 10:15 PM.

  10. #55
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    Originally posted by Econman

    Let's focus on the user's perspective for a moment. I can think of at least one benefit of going to a site like WeddingReceptions.com compared to typing Wedding Receptions into the Google box: the user avoids the effort of going to google. (This is one click saved, if they have google bookmarked in some manner, or it is 10 keystrokes, if they don't).
    Not if you have Google search box right there in your toolbar...and thats the direction things are moving !

  11. #56
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    Originally posted by generic
    It's a synergistic upward spiral imo.
    You've stated a strong argument in favor of combining a solid domain name with good content plus SEO work.

    Clearly, it is harder/more costly to do all 3, so some investors will prefer a less complex or less developmental approach--one that relies on ppc income and/or just sitting on the domains until values increase.

    You are suggesting that this synergistica business model is the highest and best use of prime .com domains--just as developing an office building is likely a better use of a prime downtown parcel than simply putting up a parking lot.

    I'm not sure if you are right, but I suspect you could be, because you are creating value by adding content and SEO to the inherent value of the domain, thereby enhancing the total value of the property.

    To the extent high quality development occurs on these prime .com domains, this enhances the value of all the other (undeveloped, or lightly developed) .com domains, including those that are parked generating ppc income, and those that sit completely idle.

    But, if too many of these domains were developed without any content (using the pure ppc approach) I suspect the value of similar domains would decline, because users won't be rewarded for guessing the name, and typing it into their browser.

    If every holder of prime downtown realestate were to leave their land vacant, or put up a parking lot , it would hurt land values downtown. This would be true even if they put up bus stops that allow people to get where they really want to go (e.g. to all the shops and restaurants that are being developed somewhere else).

  12. #57
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    seo "work" is nothing special, its just content presented in a logical way. The root of quality long term "seo" is quality content - enough text to be indexed meaningfully - with the text offering value to as many users as possible to encourage the highest rate of unreciprocal linking imo.

    In other words, seo work is really just the work of creating content in a logical way
    Last edited by generic; 10-27-2004 at 03:40 AM.

  13. #58
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    Not all SEO efforts are purely a function of content development. For instance, developers can seek inward links, pay to be included in authoritative directories. etc. It is useful to distinguish between content development and SEO efforts, even though these activities overlap.

  14. #59
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    but, I see safe's point

    if you are just aquiring names all the time, optimizing them through ppc for highest earnings, you may not have the time to even do the simplest development - or maybe not even care to

    you're still making lots of money and gonna make even more because your focus is on the next name to acquire - its a pure traffic aquisition focus

    so I can understand that

  15. #60
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    Originally posted by Econman
    Not all SEO efforts are purely a function of content development. For instance, developers can seek inward links, pay to be included in authoritative directories. etc. It is useful to distinguish between content development and SEO efforts, even though these activities overlap.

    Thats true but that's not too hard to learn or achieve


    Consider that without good or unique content the most important pr passing directories like yahoo and dmoz may never be accessible to you (even if you have cash in the case of yahoo) - this also may be true with other directories that one needs to apply to

    so quality seo starts with a root of unique, interesting content which is then shaped


    content is far far more important than seo technique (especially in the long run) - seo technique can be learned pretty quickly imo
    Last edited by generic; 10-26-2004 at 10:37 PM.

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